003: I Never Want to Forget About the Past with Mike Petraglia

Some people can’t move on from the past fast enough. Not Mike Petraglia. Not now, not ever. Mike is a well-read, highly respected sports journalist in Boston, Massachusetts, with Cincinnati roots and Midwestern sensibilities.

As much as his work brings him into exceptionally loud and feverishly energetic arenas and stadiums, Trags (Mike Petraglia), as the locals know him, is most at peace in a quiet place immersed in a book that captures themes of values and doing things the right way.

A subscription to Sports Illustrated sparked his love of reading and writing, and not just about sports. Mike recalling his father’s urging to “read, read and read some more” are touching. So too is his honesty of fudging when his dad asked about his reading list. And his description of getting the “evil eye” from his high school librarian is laugh out loud funny.

Listen to what Trags says, and read what he writes. Mike Petraglia is a reading, writing and talking treasure.

Thanks again to Mike Petraglia for joining us from CLNS Media in Boston.  Again for more information about the books mentioned on the show, what Mike talked about, things he recommends, what I talk about, why I read nonfiction.com.   To find out about upcoming episodes visit our bookstore and join the nonfiction network an exclusive private online community for listeners, and we’ll keep the conversation going after each episode.  And thank you to Nirvana on Cape Cod the perfect spring, summer and fall getaway with world class trout and bass fishing right on the elbow. If you enjoyed the show today and are interested in receiving future shows automatically to your podcast be sure to hit the subscribe button and you’re listening directory. It’s easy and it’s free and do us a favor share the podcast with a friend for Mike Petraglia. I’m Kevin Walsh. See you next time on Why I Read Nonfiction.

Related Books

1984 by George Orwell

by Rinehart and Winston Holt

Finding the Winning Edge

by Brian Billick, Bill Walsh and James Peterson

Full Podcast Transcript

[00:00:12] Recorded live from the Sweet Tea studios in Wellesley Massachusetts. You’re listening to the podcast. Why I read non-fiction. Hosted by broadcaster and author The Perfect Catch and Follow the Dog Home.  Here’s Kevin Walsh.

[00:00:30] Hello and welcome to Why I read Nonfiction where it’s more about the reader than the book.  Of course, we’ll talk about the books how can you not? But this is more a deeper dive into why we love to read, how we do it, what our habits are, what books have moved us, what was going on in our life at the time we read a book, what’s happened since, and how we’re just not the same person without reading in our lives. If you’re interested in receiving our show automatically to your podcast directory, be sure to hit the subscribe button in your listening directory. It’s easy and it’s free. Also visit our Web site at why I read nonfiction.com to find out about upcoming episodes. You can visit our bookstore and join the nonfiction network. Our guest today is Mike Petraglia of CLNS Media in Boston.   Trags is that you typing away in the background?  What’s going on?

[00:01:24] (Mike) It is. I’m always working I’m always writing because I read so much I can’t keep my hands still. So yeah I promise to keep my keyboard as quiet as I can when I’m on with you, and uh, having a conversation about a subject I’m very, very passionate about.

[00:01:43] (Kevin) Well we both love to read and I think it’s shaped our lives in many different ways. And I have to tell you, every time I talk to you I walk away just feeling better for having spent that time because I find you to be an interesting person, you’re a wonderful writer about the Boston sports scene.  (Mike) I appreciate that. (Kevin) You have opinions about things and then you articulate them well and write them well, and you’re persuasive with it. And, uh, so I appreciate that about you. And, and I love that you love to read and I’m going to tell everybody a story which was really are jumping in point to having you on the podcast.

[00:02:21] You ran me down at the Super Bowl in Atlanta to tell me about a book that I had given you years ago but it took a while for you to read it. What was that book and what was the impact that it had on you?

[00:02:36] (Mike) It was Larry Kane’s Philadelphia. And the reason it is it made such an impact on me, it brought me back to a time in my college days at Villanova, outside Philadelphia on the main line that I really really enjoyed. And back in the day Larry Kane was one of the premier newscasters in Philadelphia and on WCAU if I’m remembering correctly.  (Kevin) Right.  And he was the kind of guy that if he walked down the street everybody knew who he was.

[00:03:09] (Mike) Right. (Kevin) So he was the voice, he was the credible voice of news, but he was approachable to people. And that was really, in a lot of ways what the book was all about what the people are like in different neighborhoods of this city. And then I imagine you were thinking yeah I know what it’s like to be in West Philadelphia, I know what it’s like to be in South Philadelphia, and that’s, that’s what a good book does.

[00:03:36] I think.  Don’t you?  In that you start thinking about yourself and your experiences?  (Mike) So that book to me painted a great picture of the character of a city I was drawn to when I went to high school and grew up in Cincinnati. And that book was fascinating to me because it dove into the political structure of a city like Philadelphia, the social, the ethnic makeup of the city, and I when I read that book, I’m like this is why I was drawn to that city to go to school and Villanova.  (Kevin) It just validated everything?

[00:04:15] It just validated everything. (Mike) Yes.  (Kevin)  You knew it reminded you of what you already knew, or what you think you would know, and that’s, that’s the value of a good book because it’s looking back at you, and you can think about it, right?

[00:04:27] (Mike) And it was so anecdotal and there were so many parts of that book that I actually lived through.  You know so many moments in the mid early to mid 80s when I was going to school at Villanova that really brought me back, and to me, one of the biggest reasons I read Kevin and read books is I’m nostalgic. And when a book can bring me back in time to a certain point in my life it hits home. And that’s when I get really stuck to a book. When you asked the question and that’s a great question, it’s a fundamental question why do you read?  For me, it’s to relive the past.  And I know there’s a certain danger in doing that too much, but I never ever want to let the past go, I never want to forget the past, right? Because I do

[00:05:18] I am one of those people, Kevin, who believes that if you remember the lessons of the past you’re better in the present and the future for it.

[00:05:26] (Kevin) Our guest today is Mike Petraglia from CLNS Media in Boston sports writer, but just all around good guy that seems to know something about everything.  So we’re talking about our love of reading and that’s really what the premise of the show is about with each and every guest. Were you always a reader Mike?  From the first time you picked up a book, or was it something that had to grow on you?

[00:05:49] (Mike) It had to grow on me. I will tell you this, I didn’t always read books when I was younger.

[00:05:55] I remember my dad got me, what really got me into reading was my dad got me a subscription at my request to Sports Illustrated right around the Big Red Machine days in 1975.  And I remember the first Sports Illustrated I ever read was when the Reds beat the Red Sox in the nineteen seventy five World Series. And I remember those Sports Illustrated issues like it was yesterday. There was one of Johnny Bench tagging a player at the plate and it was split with Luis Tiant on on the cover, and then there was Will McEnaney jumping into the arms of Johnny Bench after the Reds beat the Red Sox in Game 7. And those are the two, that those are the two pieces of literature I remember that got me jumpstarted into reading. I remember it like it was yesterday. And then I remember my first Sports Illustrated issue that was actually mine to hold and that was after he got me the subscription that was Lynn Swann diving for that epic catch in Super Bowl ten.  (Kevin) Against the Dallas Cowboys right?  (Mike) Yes against the Dallas Cowboys. And then from that point on I started to read a lot of sports books, and that’s really what got me and to really reading voraciously through my younger years.   I very honestly and very frankly I didn’t read a lot of classic literature like Moby Dick or even Huck Finn. I just wasn’t that kind of reader. Later in life in high school and certainly in college, I got into those books like 1984 by George Orwell.  I really like you know that science fiction fantasy.

[00:07:42] But deep down I am somebody who likes to read a lot about history and good books about points in history American history to me are kind of my sweet spot.

[00:07:57] (Kevin) Do you feel if you go a couple of days, well, this is how, let me tell you how I feel.

[00:08:01] And if you feel differently than just say so.  If I go a couple of days, and I don’t read, for me whatever that choice is, I kind of feel out of balance. What about you?

[00:08:14] (Mike) Yeah, I mean I feel like if I’m not informed I’m out of balance and I try to read and keep up on current events. But in terms of reading books, I read when I’m inspired or feeling nostalgic that’s when I’ll pick up a book. That’s what I’m motivated to really go look, I just want to escape what’s going on in the real world and I want to sit down and look back to a quieter time, or even a different time.

[00:08:40] (Kevin) Our guest today is Mike Petraglia from CLNS Media in Boston great sports writer, commentator, you see him on TV, on the radio on video on the Internet. Why I read non-fiction is brought to you by Nirvana on beautiful Cape Cod. Have you ever been to the Cape? If you’re looking for a great spring, summer or fall getaway check out Nirvana. It’s a coastal theme newly renovated home with accommodations for up to 10 guests on a stunning freshwater private kettle pond that’s close to world renowned beaches. It’s the perfect swimming and fishing hole loaded with four species of large trout and bass. It’s my favorite place in the world to fly fish and stay. And after the show. Be sure to visit whyireadnonfiction.com. Back with Mike Petraglia from CLNS Media in Boston. Mike do you have a preference for reading hard copy, or e readers?  How does it go down?

[00:09:37] (Mike) Oh definitely hard copy. I have to have the book in my hands and I have, I’m very passionate about that.  And I get people who I see on buses, or on the subway all the time, with e readers, you know, as they’re trying to you know pass time on their commute. But I have to have the book in front of me. I also am not one of those who will actually stand up with the book on a subway and read.  I just can’t do that.  If I’m, if I want to read, and really get into what I’m doing, I prefer it to be a quiet room, in my office, or in bed, and nothing else can disturb me.  And I can focus totally on the book and get lost in the book.  When I’m on a subway or what have you, or moving, or somebody else is driving.

[00:10:29] I’m not one of those who will just pick up the book at any moment. I really want to delve into the book.

[00:10:34] (Kevin) I get it.  But you can appreciate when somebody is reading on a subway and is walking into signs you know that’s a good book right?

[00:10:41] And you wonder what it is?  (Kevin) I do. I absolutely do. I’m just saying that’s not for me because when, I when I read, I want to be dedicated to that time to just focus solely on the book.  And I just feel like when I’m in transit, I’m not able to do that as well.

[00:11:01] (Kevin) Do you usually, I’m sure this has happened, but what, what’s the balance between you falling asleep with a book in your hands, or being wired and you can’t fall asleep?

[00:11:14] (Mike) So I, that’s a great question, and I like falling asleep to a book.  Because books will, when I talked about reading books about the past and nostalgia that relaxes me, and it puts me in a state of peace.  And some people like to read a book because they’re like you said wired and can’t fall asleep because the books so good. I like the book that relaxes me and soothes my soul.  And that’s why I read.  Because I think a good book, especially a good nonfiction book that takes me back to a different place and time is like a great documentary. It is bringing you back to a place where you had a different perspective, and when a book does that for me it really relaxes me.

[00:12:07] (Kevin) We talked about Larry Kane’s Philadelphia and how it did all of what you just of spoke there. Is there another book that you read prior to that years before, when you were a younger man, where it just changed your life or your perspective, and it was you walked away and you’re like, I really needed that and at that time?  (Mike) I would say When Pride Still Mattered.

[00:12:30] (Kevin) For those that know what that is, I’m sure they won’t mind the review.  But for those that are not familiar help us out.

[00:12:40] (Mike) It’s a David Maraniss book about The Life and Times of Vince Lombardi from the times he grew up in New York City, and how he was molded by those times being raised know a very strict Catholic in the streets of New Jersey and New York City.

[00:12:58] And growing up and in what really formulated him into becoming like the, you know, current day Bill Belichick, to become a teacher first and then a football coach. And when I read that book it really brought me into the heart and soul of a man who was dedicated and passionate about what he was doing. And obviously as a football coach and there was the football element, but that book to me really hit home with a lot of the values that I think today are missing.

[00:13:31] And I have to say, Kevin,  at the risk of sounding too… uh (Kevin)  No put it out there Mike because you’re singing my tune because there was a time where people had values, they weren’t afraid to express them they weren’t afraid to live them. They were not so worried about offending other people, not that others should be offended, but it was just, their moral compass and who they were. And they thought that was fine.  (Mike) And that’s what it is.

[00:13:59] The moral compass in that book is very very strong. And, you know, I think of that book when I think back to the Malcolm Butler situation and Super Bowl 52 when he was benched by Bill Belichick, and nobody can, you know, to this day really get an explanation of why?  And I think of that book, and I’m like, there was something about pride and doing things the right way that mattered to Vince Lombardi and matter to Bill Belichick.  And that, the name of, the title of that book to me is like the perfect title of any book, because it was really from, you know, front to back and really, you know, whatever it was 500 pages long, that theme carried throughout the entire book.

[00:14:46] (Kevin) It was profound because good messages are told constantly not just in what you say but but in how you behave and Vince Lombardi the legendary coach of the Green Bay Packers, and now as we’re experiencing with our day to day jobs with Bill Belichick of the New England Patriots, he is a throwback and a half.  And choosing to bench Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles, in the opinions of a lot of people in the greater Boston area, cost the Patriots the Super Bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles.

[00:15:18] But we all wonder don’t we?  Was there a matter of principle with Bill Belichick and that player, why he didn’t play him? And he of course, Malcolm Butler, was the Super Bowl hero from Super Bowl forty nine with the unlikely interception late in the game against the Seattle Seahawks.  (Mike) Yeah, yeah.  And the other thing about that book it peeled back the layers of a man that I think on the surface back in that day, all you saw were the news clips of the sports clips of him screaming and yelling,“What the hell are we doing out there?”  And all of his gyrations on the sidelines.  But when you read the book, it takes you back to what really made Vince Lombardi the man he was, and the passionate side, and what family meant to him, and some of his regrets about not spending more time with his daughter, and the health issues that he faced. It just to me really struck home with the issues that a celebrity coach like Vince Lombardi faced back in a time where we didn’t peel back layers right?  We didn’t peel back layers.

[00:16:31] (Kevin) No of course we didn’t. And even with our presidents way back when.   John F. Kennedy, and he had a private life that was not the most admirable in some ways. But but the media didn’t go there, and we see how different coverage of politics now is. But at the core of it, Mike, we’re all people. We all have feelings, we all have problems, even people that seem to have everything in their lives. Look look at Tiger Woods.  Would you want his life worth any amount of money in the world?  (Mike) No.

[00:17:02] No thanks. And I know, and even, you know, the current issue that Robert Kraft is going through. You know, when when you look at how celebrity is treated now, the payoff, or  the price that you pay is your privacy. And how hard people are willing to dig into your past and your present and what makes you who you are. And I think, you know, a lot of these books that kind of peel back the layers, I keep going back to that phrase, but are done well after the fact and in some cases after that person has passed, because you know that wasn’t done back in the day.

[00:17:47] (Kevin) Our guest is Mike Petraglia  from CLNS Media in Boston. For links to books mentioned on this show, Log on to our Web site at https://whyireadnonfiction.com Why I  read nonfiction.com is brought to you by Nirvana on beautiful Cape Cod. Have you ever been to the Cape?   If not, you should go. If you’ve been, ya know what I’m talking about. If you’re looking for a great spring, summer or fall getaway check out Nirvana.  A coastal themed, newly renovated home with accommodations for up to 10 guests on a stunning freshwater private kettle pond that’s close to world renowned beaches. It’s the perfect swimming and fishing hole loaded with four species of large trout and bass. My favorite place in the world to fly fish and stay.  Trags, when you have a book in your hands and assuming you don’t have to bring it back to the library, it’s yours, do you mark it up?  Do you take notes?

[00:18:41] Do you dog ear it?  (Mike) I will dog ear it.  Occasionally I’ll put something in the pages to mark my place but I won’t mark it up because, I just, I don’t know.  (Kevin) Is it sacrilege? Do you have

[00:19:00] Sister Mary Catherine’s voice in your head saying don’t do that!  Or a librarian saying that?

[00:19:07] (Mike) I have a librarian from Indian Hill High School in Cincinnati staring at me and giving me the evil eye if I take a book out and don’t return it back in almost pristine condition.  That bodes from the librarian and from my dad. That kind of strict discipline is the way I and I read you know with a discipline that was kind of instilled from my dad. So, I’ll tell you this, and I want to pay homage to my dad, because you know, if he were alive he would tell me to make sure you remind everybody he was the one more than anybody else saying “Pick up a book and read Mike. You’re not reading enough. He would drill that into me constantly when I was younger. You know, in my pre teens and throughout my teen years he would really drill into me. You need to read more. You need to read more. Because he was an incredibly voracious reader. I mean infinitely more so than I am.

[00:20:09] (Kevin) So did you and did you want to impress him in some way? Because look, if there a son alive that, that doesn’t want his father to be proud of him I don’t know who he is.  (Mike) Right.

[00:20:20] And I would always try to tell him I am reading, and yes Dad, I’m reading more than just sports.

[00:20:28] That wasn’t always, I wasn’t always telling him the truth, but I would try to convince him that I was as well-rounded as possible and he knew that the best way to do that is read a book. And he, he just you know he had books upon books upon books in his library in our house in Cincinnati. And now I have my own library thanks to Johnny Miller who I want to pay homage to him as well.

[00:20:54] (Kevin) Yes. Tell the story of Johnny because he is such a huge figure on the Boston sports scene for, because he’s he’s been doing it longer than a lot of us, and he, there are certain things about Johnny with his health, his appearance, the total package that is Johnny Miller is fascinating.  How would you tell it?  (Mike) So Johnny Miller has been covering the Red Sox since 1975.

[00:21:21] He has battled with M.S.. You know I’m sure a lot of people know his story in the 2018 World Series.  His plane out to L.A. had to be diverted through Denver after game two of the World Series between the Red Sox and Dodgers. He had a stroke, but fortunately he recovered. He made it back in time to be back on the bench in Fort Myers that spring training 2019. But Johnny Miller has impacted thousands of people along his time covering the Red Sox and to a lesser degree the Celtics. You know, over is what forty five years in the business for WBZ. He has sent me, Kevin, literally hundreds of books over the 20 years, or 25 years that I’ve known him.  A lot of them political.

[00:22:10] And he knows I love to consume politics. I love to, you know, follow the political news as much as I can. I don’t like getting angry when I read.  Sothere is a fine line when he gives me a book and usually out a dive right into it because he knows that I love getting into politics  and reading about politics. Go ahead.

[00:22:34] (Kevin) He knows you Mike. And I think what you’re hitting on he is your friend. He he is your colleague.  And I was once told, and I agree with this 100 percent, my next door neighbor who will be a future guest on Why I Read Nonfiction, doesn’t agree with me. It just doesn’t work for her, she’s the outlier, and she will admit it. But, I say read what your friends recommend.  Because they’re your friends for a reason. They’re your friends because you have similar interests. So, if they think the book is good, if, it’s good enough for them it’s probably good enough for you.  That has served me well. And also, I don’t think anybody makes a book recommendation lightly because if I’m making a book recommendation to you, Mike, I’m asking a couple things of you. Number one I’m asking for money because it’s going to cost you money to buy it if you don’t go to the library.  But more than anything I’m asking you for time. And a lot of time.

[00:23:26] (Mike) Right.

[00:23:28] Yes, uh, but I know you wouldn’t make the recommendation lightly.

[00:23:33] And you know more than anything like you did with Philadelphia right?  We started this conversation talking about Larry Kane’s Philadelphia and you said that you knew I went to Villanova, and I love Philadelphia. And I think when I first met you Walshy I could tell from the accent, I’m like you’re from Philadelphia, or you have some connection to Philadelphia. And you said how do you know? And I’m like, well, I have this thing about Philadelphia. I love Philadelphia. You said, “Well there’s a book that you absolutely positively have to read.” And you know that’s how I think good recommendations get started and I think that’s how good friendships get started. And, you know, it’s the books that bind, right?

[00:24:15] (Kevin) Yeah. Sure.  You ever emotional reading a book Mike?

[00:24:19] (Mike) Yes, I get I don’t usually get teary uh,  but I get, (Kevin) You’re into it right? (Mike) No,

[00:24:30] I’m trying to think of the word, I occasionally get angry reading a book which I told you a couple of minutes ago I don’t like getting angry reading a book which is why I, I steer clear of a lot of political books.

[00:24:42] But there are books that will make me very nostalgic and take me back, and make me very sentimental and just short of, you know, welling up and tearing up. But books can really make me ask, OK what was it about that period in time that I’m missing now?

[00:25:11] (Kevin) You ever bail on a book?

[00:25:15] (Mike), Yes, but for different reasons not just because I don’t…

[00:25:21] (Kevin), Well let’s hear ’em, because I got a story for you on this one because, you know, two good Catholic boys. I read a book years ago called Hostage to the Devil which was written by the, the exorcist in the New York dioceses.  And going into it

[00:25:38] I thought it would be a struggle between good and evil and good, of course, would triumph, and everybody would live happily ever after.  It was the story of five modern day exorcisms. Mike, I got to tell you, (laughter) nobody comes out the same after that, including the reader. There is no happy ending even if, like the demon is expelled, but the priest that conducts the exorcism and the person that was possessed, OK it’s real. The devil is real. God usually wins. But you’re all going to be beat up. And, I eventually, after I figured at some point this is gonna get happy and it never did. I’m, just I’ve had enough. I just, I had to leave it. It was just too emotionally draining and painful.

[00:26:23] (Mike) Yeah. I’ll never leave a book because it’s too

[00:26:29] Too emotional, or too painful.

[00:26:36] If it’s a story if it’s detailing something that somebody else is expressing to me, personal feelings that they, you know, are something, or have felt throughout their life, I will never drop that book.  I’ll only drop a book when people are preaching to me. And I really will drop a book when I feel people are reaching, or extrapolating theories with no basis. Then, I’m like, I’m out.

[00:27:09] And if, if you want to relate to me facts, or write historical perspective on a time and place great, but when you start preaching to me that’s when I’m out.

[00:27:24] (Kevin) What’s the best book that you could recommend to somebody?  Where it may be, I know you would tailor to a specific person, but if you could if you could give a book to mankind and say you’d be better for having read this, what would it be and why?

[00:27:40] (Mike) Huh, that’s, that’s a really difficult question. I’m gonna go with Bill Walsh’s book Finding the Winning Edge and here’s why. It’s much more than just about football, it’s about learning to organize your life, and set priorities before making critical decisions. And to me there are so many life lessons in that, you will definitely be a better person. Obviously, it’s a, you know, there’s a lot of football there’s a lot of X’s and O’s in there, but that book, more than any other, gives you practical suggestions about how to deal with people in difficult situations.

[00:28:21] Bill Belichick has pointed to that on numerous occasions that a book that has helped him more than any other, and besides The Art of War, is Finding the Winning Edge because, when you’re a football coach or when you’re, you know, a person who oversees people and any walk of life, and you have to have difficult conversations, there are great suggestions from Bill Walsh’s experience with the 49ers.  (Kevin) Jumping in points, the roadmaps for how to have that. (Mike) Yes!  (Kevin)  And that’s hard because I think people are… we come from a time where if a child was misbehaving in public, if the parent wasn’t there to take care of it, somebody, some other adult became the de facto parent.  And nobody was worried about it, that’s just what you did.  Because we sort of had a guide and in some ways we’ve lost the way.

[00:29:14] But maybe this will get, a book like this will get people on the right path.  (Mike) I just swear by that book and I’ll tell you this, Kevin, let me tell you a quick little anecdote about that story.

[00:29:24] My life partner Jeannie, she asked me one day if there’s one book that I could get you as a gift, what would it be? And I didn’t hesitate. And she got me this this book Finding the Winning Edge. It is a very rare book to get in hardcover. And she made it is my birthday gift about, I want to say seven or eight years ago, and it’s cool.

[00:29:50] So I have hundreds of books, but in my office I have a selection of let’s say 25 books that I have for quick reference that I go back to all the time where I can lean back on my chair and pull this one out. (Kevin) I know what you’re talking about, a reference? (Mike) Yeah. That’s the book that I pull out more than any other

[00:30:11] just to read sections of it.  I can also, Walshy, I can jump into a book midbook and start reading if it’s a book that I’ve read before and just, you know, say OK I want to pass 15 minutes here. And I remember reading this in this book I want to go back to it.

[00:30:29] (Kevin) Yeah. And that’s the value of a good book. And you can go back and my reference book I guess what your The Winning Edge is with Bill Walsh would be The Prophet and Kahlil Gibran for me. I go back all the time.  Sometimes I read it cover to cover again, or I just cherry pick chapters because it always gives me, what I think I need at the time. Hey Mike, I appreciate the time and I always enjoy our conversations.  Looking forward to seeing you again in the flesh sometime soon.  You’ll come back on the show sometime right?

[00:30:59] Absolutely Walshy. Anytime you need me give me a ring.

[00:31:03] Thanks again to Mike Petraglia for joining us from CLNS Media in Boston.  Again for more information about the books mentioned on the show, what Mike talked about, things he recommends, what I talk about, why I read nonfiction.com.   To find out about upcoming episodes visit our bookstore and join the nonfiction network an exclusive private online community for listeners, and we’ll keep the conversation going after each episode.  And thank you to Nirvana on Cape Cod the perfect spring, summer and fall getaway with world class trout and bass fishing right on the elbow. If you enjoyed the show today and are interested in receiving future shows automatically to your podcast be sure to hit the subscribe button and you’re listening directory. It’s easy and it’s free and do us a favor share the podcast with a friend for Mike Petraglia. I’m Kevin Walsh. See you next time on Why I Read Nonfiction.

 

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